013: Destigmatizing Therapy for Men

Transcript

Karen Conlon:
Hello and welcome again to the So, How’s Therapy? podcast. This is a podcast that demystifies, debunks and destigmatizes what happens in the therapy space. I’m your host Karen Conlon, and I am so excited to introduce to you today Dr. Heather Stevenson. Dr. Heather Stevenson and I are going to be talking to you today about therapy for men. Heather, thank you for being here today. Would you give us a little bit of an introduction about what you do? And we’ll get cracking on this amazing and very important topic.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
Yeah. Thanks for having me, Karen. I’m excited to be here talking to you today. So a little bit about me, I as you said am a clinical psychologist. I have a private practice here in New York City. I’m also licensed in California since that’s where I’m originally from and just moved actually not even that long ago, a few years ago. So I see clients in both states online and in-person in New York when in-person was a more regular thing before all of this crazy, crazy times.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
So I’ve got a practice where I see both men and women, but I work primarily with adults who struggle with anxiety, depression, burnout. Really kind of very driven, highly motivated, but stressed out folks who kind of struggle with taking care of their own needs and mental health.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
So I’ve been doing that for several years. And prior to that, I was working at a men’s prison out in California and have always had interest in working with men for a number of different reasons. But I really like working with that population. And I really loved working with the guys in prison, but just needed to make a change and a transition to private practice. So it’s still very much emphasis I try to focus on is really marketing to men and trying to get men into the therapy space. So yeah, I’m really excited to have this conversation about it today too, and hopefully help destigmatize it some more so that more men show up at our doors.

Seeking out therapy – Men vs Women

Karen Conlon:
Can you tell us a little bit about what types of differences you started to see between the genders when you started to treat or work with women versus men? Does anything stand out for you in particular in terms of the way that they show up, the willingness to open up right away? And maybe that’s too general. Maybe there’s not a difference.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
Yeah. There’s both differences and similarities of course. The things that I tend to notice in terms of off the bat, there’s generally just more of a willingness and openness, and an acceptance I think among women to seek out mental health support and therapy, and get that. Whereas there’s a bit more of the stigma still around men around being able to ask for help, say you need support, admit that you’re even struggling or have stuff that you want to work on. So that’s often one initial barrier is just to being able to get people in the door. Since I really focus on working with men and marketing to men, my practice is a really great split, pretty half and half. Which is sometimes a bit higher than maybe the average therapist.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
But there’s this idea that for guys still, it’s not okay to say you’re having a hard time or to say you’re struggling with anything. So they’re sometimes more reluctant to even come in, whereas women might be less so. And then the other difference I kind of notice is how they’re presenting and what they’re saying they want to work on or what they want to address.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
Men tend to show up in one of two ways when it comes to therapy. It’s either there’s an immediate problem or a crisis. And I’m in such a heightened kind of state of stress or problem, I want help immediately. But then that tends to a lot of the time be a quick burning impetus, and it can kind of fade quickly once the intensity of it starts to resolve. So sometimes, those guys don’t stick around for very long. It might actually only come for a handful of sessions, and then they might leave afterwards. A little bit of that quick fix kind of mentality that they might not then stay.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
And then the flip side of that, the other side I see is guys who might be in more of an ongoing transition, or problem phase, or thing they want to work on. Or they really do value and know the value of doing a bit more of the insight oriented work and getting that support, ongoing help. Which I think is also very similar to a lot of the women that come in to see me. So in that regard, there is more of the sameness. I see less of the immediate type of crisis moments bringing women in at least in my area of focus, but I do still get that with a lot of the guys.

Karen Conlon:
So I want to talk a little bit more in depth about some of these presenting issues. Before we do that though, I want to just mention to everyone listening out here, I want to be very conscientious and purposeful when we use the word men in this podcast. This particular episode is really geared towards those men out there that were born and live as cisgendered males. You were born a male and you were raised as a male in the most traditional of ways.

Karen Conlon:
This is who we’re referring to in this particular episode, because we’re really looking at the experience of being born a male and identifying and being raised as a male. We’re speaking in more general terms about the ideas and beliefs centered around getting help or seeking out therapy as a male within this context. So I just want to be conscientious of that and let you know that that is how we’re using the terms male and female in this particular podcast.

Karen Conlon:
Kind of circling back to what you were saying, the quick burn, quick fix. Generally speaking, we know that oftentimes, women and men tend to address problems differently. Men have a tendency of there’s a problem. We fix it. How sustainable is that solution? Not just sustainable, but how realistically long is something like that going to really last?

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
I think it’s the perfect word really is sustainability, because it speaks to what’s going on. And what I tend to find is that well yeah, it can maybe immediately give you some relief or immediately help get you through this transition moment. It is often like a band-aid, and it’s not actually addressing what’s the long-term change that needs to happen, or what’s really the root cause going on in this situation that maybe you need ongoing help and support with.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
And certainly, there can be moments where there might be an issue that comes up that really is only a short term momentary thing. But most of the time, that’s not the case why a lot of the guys come to see me at least. And they do in order to really make that lasting change or lasting improvement in their mental health or their overall life or wellness, there needs to be more of a commitment and willingness to keep showing up and doing the work.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
And I find that for a lot of guys and particularly a lot of the guys I see, it might be their first time in therapy. Or maybe they’ve tried it one other time before, and it didn’t necessarily work out or it only lasted for a short period of time. And they want to give it another shot. So they’ll come in and see me. And they find that it actually really feels good and it helps so much, and tend to stay for a long period of time because they are getting so much out of it.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
To me, it’s always a bit of finesse in terms of meeting them where they’re at with what they need and what they say they want to work on. And continuously getting the buy-in to keep going and keep working on it so that they do end up staying for longer periods of time. And that’s not to say that I see all of my male clients every week for years and years at a time.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
I mean some I have, but often they want to drop down to a less frequent schedule. Maybe we meet every other week, or maybe they’ve done a bunch of work and can move on to a maintenance plan once a month, let’s say. But just having that touchstone in place to keep coming back and getting some support, getting some help always seems to, I mean just serves everybody so well. Them in particular.

How societal gender norms affect men’s relationship with mental health

Karen Conlon:
Let me ask you about some of that reluctance and some of those things that get in the way of men seeking out therapy and then staying in it. Let’s talk some of these societal gender norms. Cultural, societal. Maybe we can even talk about some of the work stigma, right? Because these are all areas of stigma that men are faced with. I mean women as well.

Karen Conlon:
But I get the sense that there is a lot more psychological pressure on men when it comes to seeking out help and these different areas being something that impacts them. What have you seen in terms of the gender roles, right? Society’s expectations of men versus women. Let’s start there.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
It’s such a big question, and I could take it in so many different places. But to try to be more succinct, it’s obvious, we all know that there’s gender norms and gender roles, right? And especially in our heteronormative and cisgendered patriarchal society, men can do this, women can do this. And the conditioning, the upbringing that we particularly here in our Western culture have adopted and value is men don’t show their emotions.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
Men are allowed to feel anger. That’s about it. Anger or neutral, but not much else outside of that range. So that means they’re not allowed to necessarily feel their other unpleasant emotions, like feeling sad, or hurt, or shame, or embarrassed. But they’re also not even allowed sometimes to feel the positive ones like joy, and happiness, and excitement as well. So I think that plays into a lot of this reluctance of being pigeonholed around what’s allowed, how they can show up in the world.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
And again, these ideas that you’ve got to suck it up, be a man, just grow some balls, keep it together, and don’t show any weakness. We’ve really decided that to show emotion, to feel emotional range is somehow equated with weakness. That idea that emotion equals weakness, so men aren’t allowed to do that plays a huge role. Whether or not there’s even buy-in, it’s this unconscious kind of ingrained belief that takes root and takes over.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
So that was something I really saw a lot especially in working with the guys in prison. It’s like we’ve got to be so tough. You’ve got to be macho. You can’t show that you have emotion or that you’re struggling. Or even the idea of anybody knowing you were going to see someone in mental health could be viewed as a problem that you’ve then got to be taken care of. In that sort of setting, it was like if somebody knows you’ve got a mental health issue, you become a vulnerable target even.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
And I think to a lesser degree, that can still play out in the outside world as well. Where it’s the feeling of I’ve got to keep it under wraps and not let anyone know what’s going on with me. I’ve got to be the strong tough guy, the macho tough guy who’s got it all together. Very stoic.

How cultural/work stigma affects men’s relationship with mental health

Karen Conlon:
And culturally speaking, right? There are certain cultures that really not just stigmatize, but punish you. I mean, if you are seeking out a mental health treatment, it can impact your ability to make a living. There’s judgment that can be formed around that. There’s societal impacts. The, “You are crazy if you are seeking out mental health,” or like you’re saying, you’re weak if you can’t take care of this. What’s your experience been in terms of that cultural pressure to figure it out?

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
I think it plays into that idea again of men are the providers. The providers are conditioned to be the provider. And then admit or to think about having a mental health issue or not feeling as strong, there’s that link of is that going to impact my ability to provide for my family? I think that shows up honestly across cultures. I see it across so many cultures, right? Culture, ethnicity, race, anything. That to me is just a across the board sort of issue for most men. And I think it can show up anywhere.

Same-gender vs different-gender patient-therapist relationships

Karen Conlon:
100%. And in all societal gender norms, cultural work stigma, it’s all tied in together. Isn’t it? I can see why there’s generally a more of a lack of trusting the process, trusting themselves. Which I want to talk a little bit more about. I want to ask you about trust. Is there generally more of a lack of trust between a male client and the therapist? Do you find that that trust is pretty much 50/50? It’s pretty much even. Or is there a tendency from one gender to the other to be a little bit less trusting still throughout the process?

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
It’s a hard question to answer, because I think like most things, there’s a both and to it. It can really vary person to person, and you can see it go either direction.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
So on the one hand, of course there’s certainly going to be a lot of guys who might feel more comfortable perhaps talking to a female therapist, right? That’s what you’re talking about, right? The therapist client relationship. There might be more men who tend to feel more comfortable talking to a female therapist, and opening up, and sharing what’s going on because of the view, the idea, the perception that women are just more skilled at that.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
They’ve got perhaps better emotional intelligence, are more in tune with their emotions, tend to be more nurturing maybe naturally. So there is that relationship to where it can feel more comfortable for some guys to go see a female therapist rather than a male therapist.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
So on the flip side of that, you might have a guy who views a male therapist, and the idea of talking to a man about your emotions and the vulnerability as a threat. And therefore, not feel comfortable or safe talking to a man about some of their most vulnerable things.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
There’s a flip side to that too. Again, this is where the both and comes to play is that I think you can also have it go the complete opposite of that, right? Because you can also have men who feel more comfortable bearing all and sharing something to another guy who gets it, who knows firsthand what they’ve been through and what it’s like for them. And they feel connection in that sense.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
Whereas seeing a woman might feel like more of a threat. “I can’t express my vulnerability.” To a woman, there’s some shame around that as well. So it really just depends I think on the person, on their upbringing, on the experiences they’ve had, on so many different things.

Karen Conlon:
So it’s really important when I’m hearing you say, is that it’s really important for a man who is seeking out therapy to maybe first think about what feels comfortable. If they could envision themselves sitting in a room, speaking to someone about their problems, concerns, and vulnerabilities. Is that person that they envision, that person doesn’t even have to have a face. But is that a male or a female? So maybe that might be the first step in helping them figure that out. Yeah?

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
Yeah. I think that’s a great idea. A great suggestion.

The most common reasons men seek out therapy

Karen Conlon:
In terms of the reasons that men seek therapy out, right? I mean interpersonal relationships, family relationships, career, job transitions, anger management, right? What have you seen mostly come through in your private practice if you can quantify that?

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
I mean, I’ll just say having worked with men in a variety of different instances, I’ve seen the whole gamut and I’ve seen the whole presentation of things. When I worked with guys in prison, it was a lot more of the anger issues, the addiction kind of issues, substance use related stuff. And then obviously in the private practice, it is a bit of a flip to more interpersonal relationships, what’s happening in my marriage. I’m fighting with my partner all the time. We can’t communicate. And life transitions. I want to make a change at work, or I’m about to get married, or we’re going to have kids soon.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
It is a bit of a difference in that regard what I see in my private practice, versus what I’ve seen in the past. Yeah. So I tend to get a lot more of that. People who just struggle with anxiety, or with depression, or feel like they just are having a hard time getting a handle on things and don’t know what to do or where else to turn to for support.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
So that’s what I see mostly in my particular work in my practice. People who are stressed out, who are barely just getting by, and feel like there’s got to be more to life. I want more to life. Especially for men it’s like, “I’m so work focused and work driven. And I can do that really well. But the rest of my life feels like it’s falling apart or like I’m not doing as good of a job.” Or if they’re making a transition at work, “I was really good at work. And I had that down, and I want to do something different, but it feels like a whole new identity to try to figure out who I am shifting a work role or a career transition and how can I do that more effectively.”

Karen Conlon:
And again, as you’re speaking and mentioning all of these different topics, I’m just imagining one person, one man kind of in the middle of this kind of storm, if you will. And he is struggling with trying to figure things out, with trying to balance. One of the things actually that’s come through in our practice with men is someone who wants to have a career change, but they’ve gone through school.

Karen Conlon:
Maybe they’ve got an advanced degree in a professional environment. And there’s a pressure around, “No, you need to keep that because that’s what your parents are proud of. And they talk to everybody about it.” An attorney, a doctor, or some type of profession where that profession actually brings positive credibility and attention to the family. Because it’s not just about the person. So now, that person is burdened in a way to keep to a certain career. Not because they necessarily want to, but because of what it represents to the family of the social elevation that it brings to the family.

Karen Conlon:
So there’s this pressure that, “I became an attorney and I’m really successful, but I love doing standup comedy and that’s what I’d like to do. But I’m struggling with it because there’s no way. And you know what? When I try to be funny at work, it’s not taken well. So I’ve got to keep up these different images that I have of myself in my life.” Is that something also that maybe sometimes comes across for you?

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
Yeah, absolutely right? That idea of not just the social, perhaps elevation of a family. And moving up in the world, they were moving up in class or status. But I mean, golden handcuffs are very much real.

Karen Conlon:
Oh my gosh, hold on a second. What is that? Golden handcuffs?

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
The golden handcuffs of I’ve got the really well-paying lucrative career, but I’m not satisfied. I’m not happy with it. I mean look, we’re in New York City. So we see this all over the place. People making incredible salaries, lots of money. And yet, it can feel very soul sucking and like they’re not getting anything out of it. But you’re sort of tied in to the golden handcuffs.

Dr. Heather Stevenson: To make a change means I lose all of that. I’ve got to start all over again. I’ve got to go back to a menial salary. I can’t possibly do that. So it does become an issue, right? It does become a challenge and a struggle for a lot of people. Not just men, but I do see it a lot with them as well.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
As you were kind of framing that question and bringing it up, it really resonates with this coaching program that I’m putting together. I know we were going to maybe talk about that later. But just to kind of throw in that a lot of the work that I like to do with people and that I find to be so helpful is when you start to realize or wake up to the fact that I’m living this life that I was doing for whatever reason, somebody said I needed to get this kind of job, or society said I needed to show up as this person.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
I needed to be successful by these X, Y, and Z boxes. But finding that it’s no longer or maybe ever was satisfying or truly bringing happiness, or satisfaction, or joy, how do you maybe deconstruct some of those messages? How do you deconstruct some of those beliefs and actually start building ones that feel more empowering and more aligned with what you want, and your values, and how you want to live your life? So you can feel comfortable making a shift and showing up in a different way, or starting a new career, or doing something else that you love.

Why it is important that men are allowed and encouraged to express their emotions

Karen Conlon:
I want to remind everyone we’re going to have all of this information in the show notes if this is something that you want to revisit later. I want to ask you Heather, what are men missing out on by not being able to express their emotions, or access their emotions, or talk about their struggles? What are they missing out on?

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
To me, what feels like gets missed out on is life. The true essence of life. Our ability to deeply connect with other people, deeply connect with the people that matter to us. Our loved ones, our partner, our siblings, our friends. When we’re not able to fully feel our full emotional range or express our emotional range, we don’t get the opportunity to be accepted for all of that and feel belonging from all of that. And to me, that’s the bare essence of life well lived is feeling free to be able to do that and really connect with the people that matter the most.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
So it feels like the thing that they end up missing out on are sometimes, maybe it’s a bigger circle of more connected relationships because they’ve only got one person. Usually their partner or spouse who they feel comfortable sharing with. Maybe it’s not being able to show up as your best self or the best version of yourself in this full capacity, because you feel like you’ve got to stay pigeonholed and only a small range.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
So I feel like it’s so many things, and that we are as a society and as a culture really waking up to that. And there’s such a push now around helping to change those narratives and change all of that so that men can experience that and be a part of that process.

Karen Conlon:
With everything that you said, it’s just kind of swirling around in my head, and everything that they’re missing out on. And then the flip side of that is this is everything that you can also be gaining. Acceptance, freedom, being all encompassing of all those things.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
More joy, more satisfaction in life. More pleasure.

Karen Conlon:
A lot of you are women listening to this who have men in your lives who were raised in this way. And you might even be struggling in your relationship with this person that you love, but they have a lot of trouble accessing their emotions, showing vulnerability. And it impacts your relationship with them. It impacts their relationship with their children. It impacts the family as a whole.

Karen Conlon:
And if you’re noticing that this is an issue, and if you’re noticing that this is something that is not just impacting them, but impacting you, maybe this is an episode that might be helpful for them. Sometimes, all we need is a little bit of permission. And we don’t need necessarily permission from a parent or a boss. Sometimes, it’s just somebody else saying, “It’s okay to feel this way. And it’s okay to seek out some help. Because guess what? You are not supposed to know how to figure it all out. I know you learned that somewhere. I get that, but it’s not humanly possible.” So give yourself a chance, right?

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
Just because you were told that, doesn’t mean it’s true. Right?

Karen Conlon:
Exactly.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
And that’s the thing is we get told a lot of things that aren’t actually true and we’ve just bought into them because we heard it at such a young age. And that’s where the questioning I think needs to come into play.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
But I’m so glad you said that and brought that up, and especially use the word permission because it is one of my favorite words. And I think it’s so important. And really what is needed is the permission to be granted to be able to open up, to be able to feel all of your feelings, to be able to express them. And I mean look, I’m here to give permission to everybody to do that. If you need anybody to give you permission right now, you’ve got it. Here it is.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
I just was having a conversation actually just around this with one of my male clients just last week. They’d gone through a crisis in their marriage, their relationship. And he was commenting and saying that his wife was asking, “What can I do? How can I help you? What do you think you need?” And he wasn’t sure at the time.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
And I just said to him, “I think all you really need is for her to keep showing up the way she is and showing her whole emotional cycle and process to you so that you can see what it looks like and see how she gets through it, and how it actually helps her move on. Because you’re stuck in this compartmentalizing place not sure how to do this yet. All she needs to do is show you and be the model so that you know what it’s like, and that it’s okay to do. And that it actually is beneficial to do.”

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
And I think that’s a big thing for guys, right? Is they don’t always have the models or they don’t always feel like it applies to them. And they do need some permission about it. Because one of the things you hear most commonly is they’ll just sort of say, “I don’t want to talk about it.” Right? “I don’t want to talk about it,” or, “I don’t want to think about it,” or, “I don’t want to feel that. That’s uncomfortable.” That’s what causes the problem.

Karen Conlon:
Yeah, because it’s a shutdown. It’s a complete wall that’s being put in front of any potential for conversation or any potential for growth or for curiosity. And for those people as you were speaking, I also thought about the fact that for those people out there who maybe don’t have that person, that spouse, or that best friend, or that whoever that might be who keeps showing up for you, the therapy space can actually be that place.

Karen Conlon:
Right? The therapy space is the place where you and your therapist, you have a good relationship. Where that showing up, that vulnerability, just that practice of being in this emotionally safe space can be helpful.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
That’s it. Yeah. That’s what it’s here for. Right? That’s exactly what it’s here for. The thing I always tell my guys, and so many of them know this and get this because they’re living it all the time. Is when you don’t do that and when you do compartmentalize, or push it down, or avoid it, you become a ticking time bomb or a pressure cooker that after so much time of doing that, it will explode in some way.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
It’s either going to explode in actual anger, or irritability, or getting into fights. Or it’s going to explode in I’m trying to cope and numb this out by again, turning to alcohol, or substances, or food. It’s going to explode in some way and cause more havoc on your life. Your physical body might start to show the signs of it. It’s not healthy for us to do this. And we’ve got to find the relief valve. And that’s what therapy is.

Karen Conlon:
That’s such a great analogy. That release valve that we need to find. And if you think about the pressure cooker, it lets steam out slowly, but steadily and consistently. And that’s what we’re talking about here. It does. It shows up, it will show up in other parts of your life. You talked about exploding. I’m going to talk to you really quickly about imploding.

Karen Conlon:
The body and physical health issues that come up. Headaches, GI issues, back pain. Things that you go to the doctor for. Unexplainable. I always say the body will express what the mind cannot. That’s just the little saying that I came up with because that’s exactly what we see when we are holding stuff in. Just because you’re not dealing with it, doesn’t mean it’s not there. It’s there.

What we can do to help men feel more comfortable seeking out therapy

Karen Conlon:
So let’s just kind of quickly turn our attention to what we can do to help men feel more comfortable seeking out therapy. And when I say we, I’m talking to you mom, dad, sister, friend, spouse, teacher, coach, whoever it is that’s in the life of a male who you feel, “I really think you could benefit from this. What can we do to support and destigmatize men seeking out therapy?”

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
I mean, it really just starts for me with having more open conversation about it and dialogue like this. And putting it out there to men, to women that love them, to everybody, right? That it’s okay to get help, that men do get help in particular for any guys that are in therapy or have sought that out to share that with the guys that they know.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
To share that with the people in their lives to let them know and hear, “Hey, it’s okay that so-and-so did it. Maybe I can do it too.” Or, “So-and-so’s husband goes. Maybe I can go too.” And just to be able to have more open conversation about it so people know it’s okay, guys are doing it. Everybody’s doing it. We want you to participate in this.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
And I think again, there is a movement that I’ve really noticed in the last 10 years, five years, three years, right? It keeps showing up and happening where we’re trying to put that out there and put it out on a more public scale. Men’s groups are exploding a lot more. Organizations are really stepping up and doing a lot more. Therapy for men is becoming a bigger topic because look, we just see the effects of it. The damage that it causes. Not only individually, but collectively, Societally when people aren’t getting help.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
So the good thing is there’s lots of resources. There’s lots of options. There’s lots of places for guys to go, however they feel the most comfortable. But they won’t ever know about it if nobody’s talking about it. So I’m really glad you’re doing this episode.

Karen Conlon:
Good. Thank you. I’m really glad to have you here and just with all the breadth and depth of experience that you have working with men and really being able to let us know about the things that we need to know about, that they need to know about. That people who love the men in their lives need to know about. Can you talk to us a little bit now about your coaching business?

Karen Conlon:
Because I feel like there’s a connection here also. I know that therapy is very different than coaching, so I want to be very clear on that. So we’re shifting gears to talk about the coaching aspect of your business. So tell us a little bit about how that might be helpful maybe for somebody who’s not necessarily ready for therapy, or doesn’t really think that they need therapy, but they’d like some coaching around making changes.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
Absolutely. I would love to. And I think before I even talk about my business in particular, I’ll just say the thing I hear a lot from guys when they come in is that they do want a bit of a blend, or a hybrid model, or a different approach or style than what we sometimes traditionally think of as therapy and just talking about your feelings or getting out there. The men I work with, they really like a more directive approach, a more hands-on what can I do? Let’s get in and do work in that way. Which is a lot more similar to coaching.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
So in my therapy practice, I always describe that I have a blended style like that. It is part therapy, it is part coaching. I am a very direct person. I do kind of lean on that, which the guys tend to really respond to. But coaching and my coaching practice is focused really on people who aren’t there to necessarily address a mental health diagnosis or a mental health issue like anxiety or depression. But more I want to uplevel my life or I want to get more skills to help uplevel my life in some way.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
So what I’m currently working on is creating a group coaching program, because I always think there’s such power in group work as well as opposed to just individual. So a group coaching program that’s similar to a lot of the stuff we’ve talked about today, but around how do I dismantle, deconstruct some of these beliefs, look at replacing them with new ones. And what are the skills and tools that people need to actually take better care of themselves and show up more present, more intentional, more purposeful in their lives so they can have that more holistic or full picture of life beyond just work?

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
So it’s more focused in that kind of realm. And how do we just give you this stuff, teach it to you, help you practice it, learn what you need to do? What are different questions to ask as opposed to how do we help you manage your anxiety or your depression?

Karen Conlon:
Absolutely. And everything that we’re talking about here, therapy and coaching alike, will help you increase and develop your emotional intelligence. And when you have a higher emotional intelligence, you’re able to read the room better. You’re able to read the environment better. And you’ll therefore be able to respond in a more confident and appropriate way.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
All of that is so correlated with success in business and at work, right? And this is where coaching becomes a really valuable asset for a lot of guys. And even a lot of companies, they know that they recognize that. And they’ll pay for it. An executive coach or another type of coach to give you those skills, because it helps you be more successful in your work life as well. And the plus side is it helps you be more successful in all the parts of your life. It’s a real win-win situation.

Karen Conlon:
Yeah, it really is. And that’s one important aspect, whether it is therapy or coaching. Remember, you might go in for one thing. But that doesn’t mean that that’s what’s going to keep you, right? Because the idea here is that you continue to develop and be able to apply what you’re learning to different aspects of your life so that you can stop treating your family life in the same way that you treat your work life. Because they’re not to be treated the same way.

Karen Conlon:
And those principles that you have at work do not apply necessarily at home. And really learning how to manage yourself. And just like a chameleon, right? Be able to weave in and out of the different roles in your life. But still at the end of the day, be who you are. You’re still going to be who you are. Okay. I would love for you to tell us what is one aspect of therapy that you’d like to share with us that you think is important to help destigmatize therapy for men?

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
I would just say that lots of men do it.

Karen Conlon:
Okay. Yeah.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
Lots of men do it, and it’s okay. There are lots of people out there that want to help men in particular, myself being one of them. So don’t be afraid, or ashamed, or embarrassed about seeking it out. Because I’ve got a practice now that’s about to skew more towards I’ve got a heavier male client caseload than women. And I think that’s fantastic. And I would love to see more guys reaching out or calling me. You’re not the only one. That’s the biggest thing.

Karen Conlon:
You know what? I’d like for you to tell us where you can be found, where we can find you. Is there a website, social media? What you’d like to share. And also, are there any resources for those folks out there that are not yet ready to reach out? Maybe they just want to dip their toe in the pool and maybe do a little reading. So first of all, just tell us where we can find you, and then any resources that you might want to drop for us.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
The best place probably to find me and reach out to me is just through my website, which right now it just for the therapy is drheatherstevenson.com. And you can send me an email there. You can read more about my work with men in therapy there. I’m not super active on social media, though I have it. So you could find me under that handle on Instagram as well. I’m just not as on it as some other folks are.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
So reach out through my therapy website, send me an email, get in touch with me. I’d love to chat, or share resources, or hear more about what’s going on with you. I will be launching this coaching program that will be under a different name come the fall, but I’m already starting to recruit for that and talk to people who are interested in it. So if you’d love to hear more about it, then please reach out, send me an email.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
And resources. I mean gosh, I have so many. So I’m definitely a book reader. I like the depth of that. I’ll give a podcast and a book. So a book that I really love and a men’s mental health therapist who is a fantastic sort of resource, Terry Real. He’s got a book called I Don’t Want to Talk About It. And it’s really for men who might be struggling with depression or who might just be struggling to give some more insight around what can be going on. So that’s a really great book that I like to recommend to a lot of the guys that I work with.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
A guy that I know who’s also a therapist who works with a lot of men, him and a friend of his have a podcast that’s all about men’s therapy and men’s issues. So there’s a podcast for that. The other men’s group that I also like to refer people to, there’s two. Really one of them is The ManKind Project. And they’ve got chapters all over the U.S. If you wanted to join a men’s group, get a little support, get some resources, they’ve got some online stuff. And then there’s another one called EVERYMAN who also does men’s groups all over the place.

Karen Conlon:
Heather, thank you so much. This has been so enlightening. I’m still thinking about the golden handcuffs. You had me at golden handcuffs really. thank you so much for all of this valuable information. We started out focusing on men, but I feel and believe that anybody who listens to this, there’s going to be somebody in their lines that this will resonate about. And my hope is that we can with this episode and through your valuable input here, that we can help to destigmatize therapy for men.

Karen Conlon:
Every person is unique and different in their own ways. There are no set of guidelines about what’s the most effective therapy for men, and that this is the magic bullet that’s going to be what fixes all your problems. We work through things. We don’t get over things. We work through them. Heather, thank you again so much for being here.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
You’re so welcome. It’s been such a pleasure talking to you. I don’t know if you could tell, but I love talking about this.

Karen Conlon:
A little bit. I could tell.

Dr. Heather Stevenson:
Always happy to be a part of that conversation. So thanks for having me.

Karen Conlon:
Thank you. And to our listeners, as always, if you want to know more about our practice or this podcast, please be sure to head on over to cohesivetherapynyc.com/podcast to check out the show notes where you’ll be able to also see Dr. Heather Stevenson’s information and how to contact her, and how to get in touch with us too. Thank you again for being here, and see you next time when I once again ask, “So, How’s Therapy?”